Five Most Interesting Conversations in Jewish History, Session V: David Ben Gurion and the Chazon Ish

"Bio. of David Ben-Gurion" taken from Jewish Virtual Library

David Ben-Gurion was born in Plonsk, Poland in 1886 and educated in a Hebrew school established by his father, an ardent Zionist. By his mid-teens, Ben-Gurion led a Zionist youth group, "Ezra," whose members spoke only Hebrew among themselves.

At the age of 18 he became a teacher in a Warsaw Jewish school and joined the Socialist-Zionist group "Poalei Zion" (Workers of Zion).Arriving in the Land of Israel in 1906, he became involved in the creation of the first agricultural workers' commune (which evolved into the Kvutzah and finally the Kibbutz), and helped establish the Jewish self-defense group, “Hashomer” (The Watchman).

Following the outbreak of World War I he was deported by the Ottoman authorities. Ben-Gurion traveled on behalf of the Socialist-Zionist cause to New York, where he met and married Paula Monbesz, a fellow Poalei Zion activist. He returned to Israel in the uniform of the Jewish Legion.

Ben-Gurion was a founder of the trade unions, and, in particular, the national federation, the Histadrut, which he dominated from the early 1920's.

Having led the struggle to establish the State of Israel in May 1948, Ben-Gurion became Prime Minister and Defense Minister. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: “Operation Magic Carpet,” the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the national water carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In late 1953, Ben-Gurion left the government and retired to Kibbutz Sde Boker in the Negev. He returned to political life, after the Knesset elections in 1955, assuming the post of Defense Minister and later the premiership.

Continuing as Prime Minister, Ben-Gurion supported the establishment of relations with West Germany, despite bitter opposition. He also led the country during the 1956 Sinai campaign, in which Israeli forces temporarily secured the Sinai peninsula.

"Bio. of Avraham Karelitz" taken from Jewish Virtual Library

Born in Kossow in 1878, he devoted his life to the study of the Torah, although also learning such sciences as astronomy, anatomy, mathematics, and botany, since he felt that knowledge of them was necessary for a full understanding of various aspects of Jewish law and practice. After his marriage he continued to lead an extremely modest life, his wife providing for their needs while he spent day and night in study. His first work, on Oraḥ Ḥayyim and other parts of the Shulḥan Arukh, was published anonymously in Vilna in 1911 under the title Ḥazon Ish, the name by which Karelitz became almost exclusively known...Even though he lived in relative anonymity, his reputation for saintliness and knowledge was known and people from all walks of life would frequent his home, for scholarly discussions or to seek advice on religious, business or personal problems, or simply to receive his blessing. When in 1933 he settled in Ereẓ Israel, his house in Bnai Brak became the address for thousands who sought his guidance. Karelitz was an example of a personality, holding no official position, who nevertheless became a recognized worldwide authority on all matters relating to Jewish law and life....Although essentially a talmudic scholar, he applied himself to practical problems, devoting much effort to the strengthening of religious life and institutions. His rulings on the use of the milking machine on Sabbath (to overcome the prohibition of milking in the usual way) and on cultivation by hydroponics during the sabbatical year (when he challenged the validity of the permission to cultivate the land given by the chief rabbinate) are two illustrations of his practical approach...He was not at all politically involved and criticized the religious Zionist camp for becoming politically involved, thus subjecting religious values to the interests of the Zionist enterprise. He rejected all public commemorations of the Holocaust....By 1948 he was already recognized as the foremost arbiter of halakhah in Israel. The Ḥazon Ish did not intend to create a revolutionary new ḥaredi society in Israel, but his teachings, his strongly held views, and his very life served as the foundation for the thriving ultra-Orthodox community in today's modern Israel.

Note that the document does not address various contentious issues commonly associated with the status quo today: exemptions from military service for yeshiva students and religiously observant girls, the interdiction of pig farming, El Al flights on the Sabbath, archeological excavations, autopsies, and abortion. The religious parties raised these issues only after the original status quo agreement, and they reflect the Orthodox parties’ success at extending their influence beyond the initial parameters of the status quo agreement.

From Haaretz, "Ben Gurion Visits a Wizened Torah Sage"

Ben-Gurion recorded his impressions of the meeting in his diary, where he described Rabbi Karelitz as possessing the “face and eyes of a spiritual man.” He noted that the rabbi spoke through the entire encounter “in a good spirit and with much laughter, lacking in a zealot’s anger, even though there is definitely something of the zealot about him, although it’s hidden from view.”

From his notes, it is clear that Ben-Gurion was hoping to find common ground with Karelitz, and that he made several attempts to broach the question of how it might be possible to reach a better form of coexistence between the Torah-observant and those with lesser levels of religious observance. The topic of national service, however, doesn’t seem to have come up at all.

“There’s the question of existence, of preserving human life,” Ben-Gurion recounted saying to the Hazon Ish. “Shouldn’t love of [the People of] Israel take precedence over everything?”

The Hazon Ish responded that, although love of Israel and love of Torah may seem like two separate things, they’re not, because “there is no Torah without Israel, and no Israel without Torah.”...

Navon, writing sometime later about the meeting, recounted how Rabbi Karelitz, responding to Ben-Gurion’s query regarding “how can we live together,” described a scene from the Talmud in which, when “two camels meet on a path, and one of the camels is weighed down with a load, and the other camel is not, the one not carrying the burden must give way to the one who is.” The moral of the parable, suggested Karelitz, was that, “We, the religious Jews, are analogous to the camel with the load – we carry a burden of hundreds of commandments. You” – secular Israel – “have to give way.”...

Ben-Gurion, according to Navon, attempted to mount a counter-argument. “And the [second] camel isn’t weighed down with the burden of commandments?” he asked rhetorically. “The commandment to settle the land isn’t a burden?... And the commandments to defending life aren’t mitzvot? And what those boys whom you are so opposed to do, sitting on the borders and protecting you, that’s not a mitzvah?”

Karelitz was not even able to agree, according to Navon, that the learners’ lives were protected by those serving in the army. Rather, he insisted that, “It is only thanks to the fact that we learn Torah that they [the soldiers] are able to exist.”

The conversation went on for some 50 minutes, after which the two men examined the rabbi’s bookshelves together. Following that, Ben-Gurion left Karelitz and traveled on to a gathering at Bnei Brak’s city hall. In the days that followed, the encounter was described extensively in the press, with different accounts emerging of what had been said. It became commonplace, for example, that the Hazon Ish’s parable had been about two wagons, one heavily laden, one empty, approaching each other on the road, not camels.

Navon also described one writer, Aharon Mirsky, whom he had briefed on the conversation. Mirsky had gone on to write up an account of the meeting that included a number of remarks that Navon had specifically told him had not been uttered. Mirsky even acknowledged that Navon had denied that the remarks had been made, but added that he “apparently didn’t understand, because they were speaking Yiddish.”

Navon went on to write: “I have two things to say about that: First, they didn’t speak a word of Yiddish, only Hebrew. And second, if they had spoken Yiddish, I would have been fine with that,” since the future president, a Jerusalem-born descendant of two long lines of Sephardi Jews, was conversant in the language.